Transcript
Hello and welcome to the If We Knew Then podcast. I’m Stephen Saux.
And I’m Lori Saux and today we’re joined by Ted green, a documentarian, whose latest film, “The Best We’ve Got: The Carl Erskine Story”, will be airing on PBS SoCal on July 4.
0:46
Ted’s film is an in depth look at Carl Erskine, a Dodger whose son Jimmy was born with Down syndrome 63 years ago, a time in our country’s history when segregation plagued humanity. Carl and Betty when faced with the inevitable institutionalization of their son, the option that was customarily given by the medical community to protect the integrity of the family unit, Betty made a choice to take her child home and raise him a decision for the time, that took great courage. And by doing so, she took some of the first steps to change the narrative of Down syndrome. Ted has been on the circuit showing his film this past year and today, he talks about what he has seen being a part of this grassroots movement that started some 63 years ago.
1:38
In addition to the July 4, airing on PBS in Southern California. The film can also be found online at Carl Erskine film.com. Check the show notes for link to the website. So welcome, Ted green.
1:56
Hello, Ted.
1:57
Well, good morning, you guys.
1:59
Good morning. Really great to see you. How are you?
2:02
I’m doing I’m doing all right. How about you guys? Doing good.
2:05
We just hit summertime. So we’re
2:07
summer. We’re excited. And you know, it’s summer when the first day out of the gate? You’re like, What day is it? Your schedule is so different.
2:15
Well, he didn’t leave didn’t have a Friday. So he had Thursday was his last day. And so Friday felt like Saturday.
2:22
I don’t even know what it felt like,
2:23
Wait a second. You guys are saying summer because school is over? Yes. Ah, yes. I kind of forget those days. Those were big, great days.
2:32
So how are you? We’re just here, weren’t you just in the neighborhood.
2:36
I was here for my daughter’s graduation from USC. Congratulations. Thank you very much. She graduated, I’d look it up summa cum laude. I’ve never been in that neighborhood. And she’s doing great. She actually went to Rome for a month right after that. And yesterday, she arrived in Belize.
2:56
Oh, wow. What did she study? What did your daughter study? Well, she
2:59
she started out film and took about 10 Different turns and ended up. I think both of my daughters are racing to see who can make the least money. Because the one from USC is in archaeology. And indeed, that’s what she’s doing right now. In Belize, she’s on a three week my Indic. And the other one is in social work. She’s getting a master’s in social work right now from Indiana University. So. So it looks like my wallet will be open for a little while to come.
3:32
These are good. People
3:34
I feel like in life, we start with one one set of goals maybe and then as we change, what’s important kind of changes.
3:43
Without question I, you know, I can just look in the mirror for that one. I mean, I had no thoughts at all about anything involving film on me I wanted to be well, I wanted to be William Faulkner. But when that didn’t work out, I wanted to be a newspaper journalist. And I was for 20 years. And it was just on a lark that I tried a little video. And now eight films later, I guess I’m officially a filmmaker, although I still kind of consider myself a journalist. But I’m much happier now with what I’m doing. I think I make less money. I have more fun, more impact. And actually, I’m really happy with the impact, you know, just to speak of what we’re talking about here. The Carlos can film is it’s, it’s really going well. And in fact, I’m really glad to be honest, so grateful, because we’ve had a lot of updates just in the last few weeks, in fact, just in the last couple days. So yeah, this has been this has been such an amazing, humbling experience. I just couldn’t be more grateful.
4:41
Well, as much as we love to tell people story on this podcast. That’s the importance of documentaries, telling each other stories learning from each other. You know, how we feel about your films and specifically that TEDx can start I mean the the Coronavirus can story. You feel
4:59
like they’re your parents, though you feel like they’re your family. So you could be the TED, you could be Ted Erskine.
5:04
Oh, I mean, Betty Erskine calls me her fourth son. And my wife and I have grown extremely close with them, you know, my wife has had a is coming off are still still struggling a little bit with an illness. And a couple times, we’ve just gone up there, you know, no cameras or anything, just the four of us, Carl and Betty and my wife and I, and we just we just hang out and talk. We don’t talk about baseball, we don’t talk about the film. You know, we just talk about life and you can’t help but leave a visit with Carl and Patti not feeling just you know, on top of on top of a mountain.
5:37
When you were talking about your the different stories that you’ve told through film, maybe we could put a list of all of them. I know that when we were introduced to you to your film, the film about
5:49
there’s one before that you might be referring to and that was about Eva Kor Yes, was one of the Mengele twins, a Holocaust survivor who actually ended up forgiving the Nazis very controversial decision to some very lovely decision to millions. And I, you know, as with Carl, I was able to catch her, you know, in her later years, and got all sorts of wonderful people to really dive into her story. And she dove into it more than she ever had before. And it ended up revealing a side of her that a lot of people hadn’t seen and very much humanized, this woman who seems she just seemed like the headline Holocaust survivor who forgave the Nazis, well, through the power of a documentary, you know, and you couldn’t do this in a 15 or 20 minute piece, but through a 90 minute piece, as it ultimately became, you know, we were able to reveal that let her reveal that and so you knew you were getting the real, you know, the real deal there. And I think that that is something that documentaries can do. It’s hard, as you know, it’s hard to pack a lot of stuff into into, I usually do a 90 minute hole. But you know, that I, my goal for all of these pieces, is for people to get to, you know, I wonder, wonder what that Eva core person or I wonder what Carl Erskine was all about, they can watch this film and walk away and just like, wow, now I know, I understand. That’s my goal. It really depends on whether the subject him or herself is willing to go there. You know how much they trust you how much their family trusts you to you know, and that’s why I don’t even begin filming for the first year. I just research and talk to people and try to gain their trust and make sure they understand we’re all trying to, to celebrate here. And it has turned out as worked. It works very well I consider myself quite lucky to have been in the in the right place at the right time.
7:41
Well, Eve, of course, was the first documentary of yours that we watched. And it just remember how I didn’t know anything about her. But it was just so insightful. It was educational. So it’s something that you know, we want our daughter to watch with us to learn. And you know, you were talking about how it changed how people saw her. And I thought well, isn’t it sad that we jump to judge people so quickly, without really knowing their story that goes hand in hand with our journey with Liam and Down syndrome, how society was always so quick to to jump on the judgment of who he is and what he can do. And I know in your documentary, what I enjoyed watching about it was as a parent, it answered a lot of my questions because I never understood why society was always saying like, I’ve never been in a position except when we were getting married, or I was pregnant, where people just, you know, they they want to share their their opinions and advice. Besides those two places, I’ve never been in a position where there was so it was so saturated with exterior opinions and thoughts and judgments primarily from people who did not know me and did not know my son. And the one thing one of the things that I love about the car Arxan story is you take the time to go back to the root of where some of these beliefs came from. And I’ve enjoyed in other conversations when someone brings a misperception or some kind of prejudice they have that they think it’s a fact that I can say, Well, do you know where that came from? Do you know how that started? And your documentary just at least brought me an understanding. Because as a parent, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I’ve, you know, said I was going to do. I was affected by these thoughts. I was affected by the misperceptions and they they became weather It was they became a part of my fight, but they still I own them I held on to them for for longer than I needed to unnecessarily.
10:09
I understand all that I will say that section of the film Well, look, I love the baseball. Certainly I love the Jackie Robinson angle. I think that’s very important. But I do think in the field, we break the film up into four parts. And the part you’re talking about that goes back to look at the history of how people with intellectual disability disabilities were mistreated, you know, from the top down for hundreds of years, I think that was the most important, I think it’s the most horrifying. I think it’s, it’s the most affecting part of the film, I hadn’t, didn’t know any of that, I certainly didn’t plan to what I didn’t start set out to do a film on Carlos gonna say, Hey, I’m gonna take this big, deep dive back into the history of that. But then when I started researching it, I myself was just, I just couldn’t believe what I was reading. And especially, you know, it was very pertinent considering Indiana was the very first state back in the eugenics days to to do have a compulsory sterilization law, which as I say, is as sick as it sounds, and was followed up by a bunch of other states and became really the norm. So that part, it was it was a difficult tell as a part of the story. I mean, you’re coming off this great baseball stuff. And also, now we’re diving back. But what I think, would think that enables what I think what’s happening, what I’ve been told is happening from people with Special Olympics, the Arc of Indiana, the arc of the United States and others is, what this is doing is it’s bringing a whole new set of eyeballs to not just the issue of the current day’s treatment and acceptance of people with special needs, but how it got there. And you know, it really makes people horrified. I think, I can’t believe it. You know, I’ll say, I’ll say this too. And I don’t know if I mentioned this last time we were together. First of all, I should say thank you for having me on again, I’m very, very grateful. I always back into the lead here. But you know, we got to, we showed the film to a group of Special Olympics athletes, they’re part of what we call the after athlete Leadership University. They have it here in the state of Indiana, they have it at Butler University, which is right by where I live. And so they had a special screening of the film for about 75 or so athletes. And it was really interesting, because let’s say you’re African American, and you’re going to school, you’re in middle school, you’re in high school, I mean, nevermind what might be going on right now in education. But you know, you generally have have some sense of what your heritage is, you know, how horrible it was, you know, and how unfair it was, and once led up to this point, but for the most part, people, at least I was told people with Down Syndrome and other intellectual disabilities really didn’t know what their heritage was they they knew what their current situation is. And of course, there’s all sorts of different development levels. But they didn’t know. And that was absolutely fascinating. Like, we watched him watch the film. And then afterward, there was a moderator who asked him a series of questions. What, what did you like about the film? What didn’t you like about the film? What outraged you about the film? And let me tell you, the outrage answers were the best. I mean, there are people just in tears saying I can’t believe it. I mean, I would have been locked up. If I had been born 50 years ago, you know, I wouldn’t be able to do this, I wouldn’t be able to compete, especially because I wouldn’t be an athlete Leadership University, I wouldn’t have all the, you know, the great schooling opportunities. And I have and they’re, they’re great. They need to get better, of course. But it really, really struck them. And I was hoping it wouldn’t strike them in too negative way. But it didn’t. It was, look, look how far things have come and look how when, look, how we can go from here. And it takes really, really cool and mostly parents, it can’t come from the very top down the presidents of the ark and present special. It comes from parents parents like Carl and Betty, being courageous, you know, going against the norm, caring for their children, when the rest of society often, you know, looks askance is that courage, that that up ended this whole system that up ended, it did not come from like Kennedy money, or anything really, at the heart of it. It came from parents, who were who were sick of what they’re hearing from doctors, and they knew deep down their kids could have a full, rich life. You know, and I still stand in awe. I mean, it’s one of the great social revolutions that nobody talks about. And that’s why I was just blessed beyond measure to get to learn about it and to showcase it in this piece.
14:56
I want to hear some of the statements, the questions and the feelings that they if you if you have them at all, because because it doesn’t make things right, but it makes it make sense. I think you have insight because to be honest, you know, first you get a list of this is what’s going to be wrong. And then you get a list of, you know, you get all of these challenges thrown your way. And you never really understand why because your child, like when Liam was in the hospital, he never proved he never showed any signs of inability, like, actually, his ability was so great, because he was in the NICU for 75 days, he was never on a respirator like he was, he was continually like meeting these challenges and overcoming them. But the story that was coming to us was so just off, it was just off. And when you have the facts as to what started the path there. That makes sense that kind of that I understand how we got here, it’s completely wrong. Because it’s hard to believe, I think, because at the same time when society says we’re not going to educate your child, or your child has all of these limits, it also says your child is an angel, and they give the best hugs and, and such joy to be around. And I would always say, Well, if there’s such a joy, then you should have them in an inclusive classroom. Yes, absolutely. But you know, I think it’s just the dichotomy. And the toll it takes on parents because it’s, it’s like a subtle form of gaslighting, you know, to where it’s just like they can’t but it’s just, it’s just so cloudy.
16:39
And all those things that you’re saying that people say, you know, Angel, but then you know that really not going to
16:45
be treated real angel like that.
16:49
And those are all, you know, phrases that have just been passed down. And you wonder how did how did we get here? Like we’re just regurgitating a narrative that was passed down. And instead you’re showing, you know why.
17:02
And I think that was what was so interesting, because we talked about this is a narrative, how did this narrative gets started, that we’re regurgitating. Your story shows that it wasn’t like a reverence or even an ableism, it was a drive to eliminate. So I don’t even know I don’t even know where still the angel and all of that those stereotypes happiest people came from or when it derived because it’s that is not the foundation of the history of Down syndrome probably
17:31
restate actually, what is in the documentary about that? Well, I
17:35
want people to watch the stuff I want people to because I thought about that. I feel like last time we really went through the plot and everything but you know, you’re talking about telling your story and and how important it is and how it just changes everything. And I think that watching your documentary and getting the whole story of Carl and Buddy Arxan and everything, just their whole the entire the entirety because there’s there’s so much there’s so much beauty, and courage and you want to know where this road of change that we’re walking on came from? They laid those first bricks, you know, they they put the bricks down.
18:15
Yeah, and I’ll say this, and again, it’s possible I’m repeating myself, but you know, as a documentary filmmaker, there aren’t like a ton of perks, I have to hate to break it anyway. You’re, unless your name is Ken Burns, you’re probably not gonna make you know, really good money. But you know, one of the one of the neat things is after you have a screening and a live screening people coming up afterward, and you know, they form a little line and they say nice words, and you try to be all humble and all that, but you know, it’s cool that’s like that. But I’ve never experienced anything like experience with this film, which is this so often happens, a parent will patiently wait in the line with with one of their children. And it’s usually a mom, but not always. And when they come finally get to the front of the line, the parent will say, you know, I just could you please thank Carl and Betty for me. And even though I know at this point why I said Well, sure why and then they said without Karlan, Betty without Betty making that decision right off the bat when her son was born April 1 1960, without that, my child here brings in her son or daughter hugging them, probably wouldn’t be here today. And that, you know, it brings tears from all of us. And it’s just, it’s just when you when you hear it like that, and when you think of it like that. It’s profound. And that’s where as as a filmmaker, you just need to step back and sort of in awe of, of this wonderful thing. You get to document that you get to share and I do think that film was probably the best way for this. You could put it in a textbook and it’s in textbooks this whole this whole history and you know, I’ve read read up bunch of unknown, but it’s you know, it’s almost necessarily kind of dry there’s a lot of material there’s a lot of names and dates and medical terms and this and that with film and especially with with the Erskine is having so many old home movies so you could see it in real time. And you know, you can, like I say the eyes often say more than the mouth does when you’re interviewing people who have gone through this who have seen little Jimmy Erskine go from something that was supposed to come become anything at all wasn’t supposed to become, you know, even a real person in most people’s minds. And to look at what he did look at him working for 20 years look at him competing a Special Olympics for 50 Looking at him now late in life moving into his own home, you know, when you see it, and you see the joy and the pride and just the humility. That’s what touches people. And, you know, I was wondering if we wouldn’t have a bunch of folks afterwards saying, kind of grumbling or giving sort of false praise saying, Well, I, I really liked the baseball part. You know, and but then and that’s a nobody. Nobody has said that. You know, and the film is now gaining traction, like you know, it’s going to be airing very soon in Los Angeles. It just aired in New York City on Father’s Day, which I think is a excellent peg is going to be airing in Los Angeles. Casey at that PBS station out there. July 4, another perfect peg for a veteran and certainly a patriot at 6:30pm. And now we’re in you know, Carl, this is kind of the update. I don’t know if you know this yet, but just a couple days ago, Carl won a big award. And so now his name is going to be out there nationally.
21:38
Aldermore. What’s his award? That was my
21:41
teeing up so I could introduce he just two days ago. I think it was two days ago at this point. Yes, he learned it’s been a flurry since then. He learned that he is one I’m gonna get this right the Buck O’Neil Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Baseball Hall of Fame. This is a it’s a really big deal. They only give it out once every three years. He joins the likes of Rachel Robinson which is great because as Jackie Robinson is widow, Jackie Robinson Carla’s old teammate with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And Joe Garagiola is another guy who have won the ward. And so Carl is now at 96. He’s finally entering the hall of fame, which has been a dream for him. I mean, he, he wasn’t really good enough as a player, but he went to all his buddies, inductions, it was like one after another, and he used to quit Well, I’m just the guy that helps them get here. Well, this time at 96, it will be Carl celebrated as his Hall of Fame weekend all the big media and everybody’s gonna be there, you know, for what he’s done. And they, of course, they singled out. They said, Yes, great baseball player, but they really singled out what he has done for the intellectually disabled. And that’s, that means that’s going to be celebrated, for all to see. And, you know, I’m hoping that that will just carry his message, all the further so we’re, we’re, we’re so grateful. I can’t, I’m so excited. It’s going to play an LA home with the Dodgers. I’m so excited. It’s going to play in New York, we did play in New York, you know, with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And, you know, we’re just hoping is sort of a grassroots kind of way, we’re hoping to keep pushing out there across the country. That’s why I just absolutely love this platform. And I’m grateful.
23:25
We’ll put a link in the show notes. With the details of how to how to watch is it going to be available online for KCT? I know that’s a public that’s public television. So is that something that?
23:35
Well, it’s a very good question. I don’t know what their plans are in that way yet. New York City, I had to sign some big contract. La I didn’t so you know, it difference, but I hope so. And also you can stream the film for just 12 bucks. If you go to the film website, which is Carl Erskine film.com. Carlos can film.com you can also buy DVDs and blu rays, their streaming is the is the easiest option for sure. But there’s a lot of other neat information on their upcoming live screenings and other things. And so it’s been neat. I just I’m so happy that I’ve been on the phone with your skins for the last, you know, two days ever since the news broke. As a matter of fact, what happened was, I reached out to the president of the Hall of Fame and I said, Hey, do you know when the voting is for this because I knew Carl was going to Carl was actually nominated by the Chicago Bulls and White Sox owner. His name is Jerry Reinsdorf, I didn’t know Jerry was a big Brooklyn guy used to go to Brooklyn Dodgers game, so I didn’t know any of that if I knew that I would have asked him for donations. But anyway, he ended up flying down from Chicago on his private jet into tiny Anderson, Indiana, he watched the premiere. And the next day I confess, I’m celebrating at a drinking establishment and I’ll send my cell phone rings and it says Jerry Reinsdorf on it and I’m like, well, it’s not every day I get a call from Jerry Rice. So I better go outside and take this one. And basically what he said is that listen, I I love the film. I love the story. Let’s see if we can get Carl, this award. And so he commissioned me. And I was glad to be commissioned to, you know, we gave all the voters a copy of the film and all that stuff. And I talked to Gary, his son today. I said, Gary, don’t you think this is the biggest award your dad’s ever gotten? He said, without question, without question. I mean, it’s the perfect award for his life. It’s the contributions off the field what he did for society. And it’s so nice to see a deserving guy get honored. I mean, and it’s not posthumous. Right. He’s the he’s there to know it, to feel it, to enjoy it. And so I will certainly be there on July 22, in Cooperstown, New York, to celebrate with him and his wife and the family.
25:44
It is the perfect award for him and to see him getting Hall of Fame. It’s just, it’s very emotional. It’s really amazing.
25:52
You know, it is. I mean, you look at me, he’s the last man standing of those Brooklyn Dodgers boys of summer. Five or six of his teammates are in the hall. Gil Hodges, Jackie Robinson Pee Wee Reese Duke Snider, Roy Campanella, I think that’s probably it, but they in his great team. And you know what, Carl was never quite as good as those guys. But he was one of the guys for sure. He was part of that bunch to no hitters World Series strikeout record, I mean, he was a terrific player just didn’t play all that long. And, and then, of course, what he did after his retirement was much, much more important, much more impactful, he would say that himself than what he was able to do during his 12 years in the majors. And so again, a lot of times, the good people in life don’t get the recognition they deserve. And so this is, this is pretty cool.
26:36
Carl deserves this award. And I feel like he’s gonna, it’s great that we get to celebrate him. But I have this feeling that that shift, after doing what most of society would have deemed the end all be all. And I think we said this last time, I think Karl probably has been celebrating, like, the richer reward. Do you know, just like from his let like, I don’t know, when you’re saying that. Because, and this is something I’ve learned from Liam, because a lot of times on the outside, I’ll be, you know, we’re like his guard here. We’re like the guard gate and like, looking for, like, different, you know, protecting him. But on the inside, Liam knows, like, he and he lives his life, right. And he’s, and he’s in that spot, that we strive to be that spot of purpose and peace. And when I watched Carl’s story, he just got it right. You know, he just got it right. And just the celebration of him. His life is a celebration. You know, you watch this movie, and just me from the very, very beginning of just love and kindness and presence and courage. It should never be referred to as courage to raise your own child. But he lived in a time that he had to be brave, but I would beg to, you know, like, he just did it, he lived that life. It gives me hope for society that maybe we’re getting it right now that maybe society is seeing what’s important, because Carl’s always seen what was important. You know, you watch his life. He’s always known him and Betty have always, you know, not without being challenged. I know that. And sometimes it was hard, but it gives me hope that perhaps society’s perspective of what successes, is maybe getting them a little insight to what real success is
28:38
a little more evolved, you would certainly you certainly hope so. And it was, you know, as, as you well know, it’s not just, you know, Carlos can all sudden flip the light switch. It was it was parents, you know, across the country across the world, who were doing that, but you know, those who were in, you know, more of a spotlight had, well, more of a spotlight on him. And, you know, they had tremendous impact. I mean, you know, I was kind of why I wanted to end the chiral film, as I did with this, just Carl and Betty, and they’re out on their porch and Carl’s planned you know, he’s playing harmonica and they have their their US flag out there, which is, you know, wasn’t for show they had that out there 24/7 All the time. It’s, I think it’s a hopeful message. But it also is more than that. I think it’s one that says, these great things can happen, but they can only happen if people work, work for them, and bind together for them. And yes, and your point about Carl getting awards while I do believe and he would say this, I’m sure this is the biggest one. He’s got. He didn’t need any awards. I have to say he is he leaves and we didn’t go too big into this into the show. Because he doesn’t go too big on it. But he’s really a faith based guy. He’s very religious guy. I think he has, he has lived his life here. him and his wife that they’re very at peace with things now are there sadnesses Of course, of course, and challenges and everything, but you know, they, and they miss their son Jimmy, you know, he comes back once a week, and they have lunch. And now he takes care of them and a really interesting twist. But they’re, they’re very much content. But I think what Tyrell told me is that what he really liked about the film was that the focus was on living for others, not just to focus on than wins and losses in a baseball game, or who your which bigwig your friends with, or anything like that. It was a more pure message. And it wasn’t necessarily something I set out to do. I just learned my subject, and then tried to replicate mirror as best I could and put it in his words. And I’m just, you know, again, I get lucky to receive some some neat response after films I did, certainly with the one on EVA core. But boy, not not quite like this. I mean, you know, you corps Holocaust survivor, how many of us are Holocaust survivors. But Carl’s a pretty relatable guy, you know, he’s kind of an everyman. There are Anderson Indiana’s there’s a million of them around around the country, and he’s lived there his whole life. And I think he is, he is almost kind of reluctant. But he, he doesn’t really mean to be a teacher doesn’t really mean to shine a light. He just does. And, and his wife does as well, I have to give her equal credit. You know, Betty Erskine, man, she’s been one of the best I’ve ever met. And, and but they’ve lived just a good life. I think they show what can be done, you know, you don’t need a gazillion dollars that you don’t need to, to change policy at the very top to make it. Yeah, that would all help. But what really fuels change, real social change is real people. And that was kind of the hope that I get there. I mean, in terms of diversity, too, with his best friend, a young African American boy, and then his incredible relationship with Jackie Robinson, it all comes back to the same thing. And that’s why Carl wrote the little book, he wrote the parallel he said, he, it’s just basically about giving people opportunity, letting letting their beauty shine, you know, and being happy. You can be friends or related or just be, you know, it’s a simple joy. I could use a million words in that get it right. But you sit with Carl for five minutes. And you feel
32:29
I think of the biggest reward for both of them, is how they live their life. I would assume we use that we use the word courage, you know, in certain decisions they’ve made. You look back and go, Wow, I mean, that what a pay off for those for those choices.
32:46
Yeah, and you know, it’s not easy. It was, I would dare say was a little harder back then without any kind of schooling or anything. But but as you also know, I mean, it’s a constant battle, I was just at the, the Summer Games for the Indiana Special Olympics, you know, they have summer games for all the different states, especially, oh, my gosh, it is just, it’s just so neat. And I always see things through sort of a historic lens. And I was looking at this gathering of 2200 athletes, and then their families in this big arena. And I was thinking this wouldn’t, this wouldn’t be possible 50 years ago, and in the whole continuum of time. 50 years is just a blip. It’s a blip. And so look at the sea change that again, was caused, well, not just by parents, but by the children themselves, by the children themselves. And it I do believe it’s opening eyes, I think, I don’t know, maybe they have these things done all the time. I don’t know. But if there were a public poll taken today versus 60 years ago, about your reaction when you interact with somebody with an intellectual disability will be a huge difference. And that’s terrific. It’s not it will never be all the way there. But everybody’s pushing and pushing and pushing and inclusion in the workforce inclusion in school. I mean, what I like about Special Olympics is that’s really, their their end goal, that the sports is really fun. It’s important and it builds confidence and it builds strength, but they’re trying now with this athlete leadership, university, and unified sports people with and without disabilities competing side by side. They’re really have a game plan like these people. A lot of these people will be bosses someday and looking to hire people. Well, maybe they’ll who will they hire a person that was their teammate, and they saw oh my gosh, what a great soul. This isn’t what a contributor. This person can be. The politics of the matter of toughen, and they can be awful, hateful nowadays, I don’t want to get on a soapbox about that, but it disturbs me deeply. But in the end, this push has started it is gaining traction and it’s just beautiful to watch. And I’m grateful to be measured. Had I not done the collars can story. I wouldn’t have gotten to know any of this. You know He’s so lucky. Because now I’m hooked for life. You know, I get to do a lot of special things, you know, with with a lot of Special Olympics athletes, they reach out to me, can you do this? Can you speak here? And like, Yeah, you tell me tell me where tell me where to go. You know, this is it’s not an obligation. It’s a gift, a gift to be able to learn, and help where I can and be helped.
35:25
What did you start out to make
35:27
in this film? Well, I had heard about Carl, I heard he was an amazing guy, he had received Indiana’s highest award for a civilian. I do have a sports background. And so I was interested in that I’m especially interested in 1950s, baseball, it’s kind of a golden age of the sport with Willie, Mickey and the Duke and three teams in New York City. And that decade that brought about all the changes, including, for instance, moving from Brooklyn, to LA and from New York to San Francisco, and from trains to planes, and from radio to TV, and the biggest evolve course from all white to integrate it. And Carl was there. This guy from this little humble dude from the Anderson, Indiana was like front and center for this whole, you know, this whole circus, this whole parade, but and I also knew that he had been involved in Special Olympics and the Arc of Indiana, but I didn’t know nearly know how deep but I thought this stood for a long time. And I got into this and in the last episode I did with you guys, is because of something that happened to a childhood friend of mine, I wanted to tell a story about people with intellectual disabilities. But I could never find my way in my my fear was that if it was all about people with intellectual disabilities, that would be the audience, their parents, and maybe teachers and the children and adults themselves. But with this, I just it just something hit me like, wow, this is a way you can celebrate the baseball and have so much fun with it. But you can celebrate so much more and bring new eyes to this. And then. But again, I was still at that point, still kind of think of mostly a sports store with this other stuff, maybe on the side. And then I got into it. And then I started researching it and just saw and then I started attending our events. And I went to graduations at the Erskine green Training Institute in Muncie, which is this incredible job training program for the intellectual disabled and, and as a journalist, I was like, I just I felt this is a story. This is a story. You can argue that we back into it a little bit, maybe. But I think I taught to take it chronologically, and I want to show how Carl himself evolved. He evolved and he didn’t expect this. He was as shocked as any parent was. In fact he admits to being almost numb. He didn’t know what to do. And it was really Betty who stepped up and said, Oh, no, no, no, no, this can go on and Oh, institution, he’s coming home with me. And Carl, of course, applauding man, but I think you can see through a single lens, a lens of this one humble guy, you can see so much positive change so much positivity. In this time when we have so many, you know, siloed political views and everything like that there’s there wasn’t an ounce of politics in that film. And it was just let’s, let’s, let’s do more than say, let’s watch Carl duelists. Let’s watch his actions speak for him. And I think they did. And I can’t. It’s a It’s just neat to see how many people big name people came aboard. And it’s not because it was Ted green making a film believe me. They didn’t know who are you. But you know, to have Charlie Steiner, the Dodgers announcer to have him narrated. He does such a wonderful job. I talked to him yesterday and he was over the moon about the award that Carl got. And to have Bob Costas did an intro for the film and he appeared in it and of course Branch Rickey the third. And they just do as they said, this time that we celebrate this guy, this lifestyle, this part of American society, I think they all sod is way bigger than a baseball story. And they wanted to they wanted in and I’m so grateful to all I say grateful a lot. It sounds like a stick but it’s not. I mean, I’ve never felt more so that way professionally than I have with this project.
39:29
I get that. I completely understand when you when you have so much. When you feel so fortunate. I don’t think it’s sticky at all to say that. I feel like that’s our life and our journey with them. We say that a lot. But it’s true. And it’s the truth. And I think people on the outside that don’t get that are like those would be the only people to say it’s sticky. Sit down, watch the film, whether you know and it’s just like, oh, yeah, I get it. telling our stories is so important. But sometimes we’re afraid to tell her stories and I don’t feel I feel like it’s the voice that should be telling those stories because those, those are the stories that need to change. But we’re so busy trying to do what’s right, or try not to rock the boat, or trying to really navigate a situation and navigate that same boat that has a lot of added weight that doesn’t belong in there. And we get afraid to say soft to speak up. And what your story does is it is it’s a, you know, you look at, like, there’s certain movies that you get to the end of the movie, and you go, that’s a perfect movie. I’ve watched that movie like 20 times a year that because it’s so like, it just flows. And it has all the elements of a good story, like a story, you know, like I’m talking, you know, like When Harry Met Sally, that’s one of mine. But this documentary, it’s that same fullness of a story. It’s the fullness that every life has the potential to muster the courage to use our voice, like Betty gave us how many words? Was it that she said, No, I’m keeping my child. I’m taking him home like, right? It’s like, and but it took so much courage. And those five words changed history. And I think that not only does the documentary shine a light on how the archaic beliefs began, where they began watch it and or you can, you know, I guess you could go like flick of an encyclopedia, or, like you said, the story, the facts have been there, but very, very dryly and maybe Dreiling for a reason, because maybe people thought no one’s gonna read this anyway. Right. But the facts are there about how it started. And it didn’t start from the inside. It didn’t. It wasn’t like founded in any, not any kind of truth, there was no truth in it. But we’ve carried it for so long. We’ve carried that story as our story for so long. And what it shows is that, you know, as parents, you do have to have courage on this journey. One day, maybe we’ll be granted the right to have the usual and only the usual concerns that we have with children. But on this journey, we do need an extra set of tools of courage tools. And I think what it shows is, that’s how the X guns made the change. He had to be brave. He wasn’t just a big baseball player, he had to be brave, she had to be brave. She had to go against. I mean, I think I go against society. Sometimes when I’m when I was in a grocery store, and people and a few people would come up to me, the narrative that they faced back then, with grace and not giving it any I don’t Well, I can’t say that didn’t give it any power, but not giving it maybe the power that we’ve grown accustomed to giving over. And I think that this film shows that the changes are very, very slow, but they’re possible. But they’re Yeah, they’re possible. And they came from two parents, like you said, just two parents saying no. And that we we have that power. And, and that’s what I want parents to understand is that like, you’re not alone. And this family that didn’t have a spotlight shining on it at all, like we didn’t know this story. Like, even with, like, when you think of Special Olympics, I would think of the Kennedys I would think about you know, like, none of this was something that we actually had at our fingertips that was you know, the the known, like, when you when you hear about things, and and I think that now we know it, like parents can maybe understand the power that they have in their own child’s life, to change the narrative.
43:48
I worry, I mean, there’s a lot there i But I understand all of it. I don’t understand it as deeply as you to feel it. But for the last three years, I’ve been really sort of dove in, given dived in whatever you do. And and I’ve I’ve seen it and I felt it with just just amazing family and the Arc of Indiana especially Messina, they’ve been wrapping their arms around me and this whole project and teaching me and teaching me and teaching me what I say is that I don’t like to compare my films, I think there at the bottom are very, very different. But I do believe now in retrospect that the message of this film is what I’ve been sort of subconsciously striving for all along. And I think it’s that message and I sort of right near the end of the film we look at Jackie Robinson’s tombstone said a life is only worth its impact on other lives and debt can you buy to that body that I think Carl embodies that I think so many people around the country and body we just don’t know him? Right and it’s in it but it’s this great group thing, this great group act that is rising the tide and it is lifting all boats even if not all, not everybody see isn’t on time remember a line from Betty in the film? She? She was talking about? You know, I asked I said it had to have been hard sometimes, right? I mean, they were, you know, stairs and this and then she said, Oh yeah there, of course. So she remember one thing it was at the college baseball World Series. There some Gary was playing in it protects us. So they went down there with Jimmy to watch it. And they sat in the stands. And sure enough, there’s a group of students that started making fun of Jimmy in some way. And what Betty said is, she said, All I could think is, thank God is not you. Because this is my child. This is my baby, and nobody can love him any more than me and his dad can. You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t so much. It was pitying these people that had these feelings of of, of hate and insecurity and fear. You know, thank God it isn’t you? Because would they be able would they be able to raise a child with the kind of love that the Ruskin’s did, would they be able to help sweep up movements? You know, I’m not going to call them headliners, because, but this is a powerful movement, and they were a powerful surge within that movement. These are the kinds of people you need. And I think that I think that Jimmy brought the best out of Carl and Betty, now that I think about that they were already great, great souls out there. But it just, it revealed who they really were, that they were up for this and they were going to lead with love, despite all this societal push to look at these folks with fear and hatred, and pity. And all this other stuff. They know. He’s our kid, he’s doing great. Taking him everywhere we go. Carlitos, I couldn’t get this in the film, but it was it was neat. It was in the 70s. At some point, they were talking about putting up sort of a group home in some residential neighborhood and all these neighborhood meetings, and all these people standing up is we do not want those people in our neighborhood, we do not want this we do not want and it was in the newspaper, it was very big. And the vitriol was crazy. It looked back and at one point, Carl, who is not one to stand up and shout out, he stood up from the front row when he turned around and there was just one specific person who was who was saying they’re going to bring down the neighborhood that the violence, the crime, sex this and, and he finally stood up and looked back and said, What do you know? You know, when I when talking about putting in a landfill here, these are beautiful people who are going to bring so much to this residency. And sure enough, that’s what happened. There was never a problem. They check back 510 years later, the neighbors all loved it, that this group was in there and guess what? So Carlin Beatty did I think there was somebody quoted in the film was saying that they started in their community. And then it kind of moved on to their city. And then it kind of moved on to the state of Indiana and some of their influence went out. I would say a large part went out nationally. Eunice Kennedy, Shriver picked Carl as a spokesperson for a reason. He’s not just a celebrity. He was a father. Right. And he could really speak from the heart and from experience and, you know, his his impact has just been tremendous. And to be able to research that and kind of cobble it all together. I mean, Carl, and Betty even said, they were surprised to see it all together for the first time that you know, you don’t really look at your life like that. But I’m hoping that now, I mean, especially we have this educational part of our real big push, especially in Indiana right now. But we’re the first year since the premiere last fall, we’ve been focusing on screenings and personal screenings, we’ve had over 50, every little part of Indiana, great old theaters, refurbished and whatnot. But now this year is going to really be in the schools. And they’re bringing this epic we call epic Erskine, personal impact curriculum. It has a shortened version of the film and has video digital lesson plans, highly vetted, you know, by teachers, groups, principals, groups, and then it has three age level books, middle school, preschool, and high school. And we’ve already taken orders for more than 100,000 books were given us all away, and schools are starting to lap it up. And you know, our hope is that that will just, it will keep keep this legacy alive in such a positive way. You know, you might watch the film a couple of times like it or dislike it and put it on a shelf. But there are new sixth graders every year, new sixth graders and again, the hope that 50 years from now, a sixth grader might go through some of this curriculum, read these books, see the film, and look across the room at a kid who doesn’t look like him or act like him. And think well, there’s no reason why we can’t be buddies. You know, that’s, that’s powerful. And if that even just affects a few people, that’s a great thing. So again, and for that I am in total debt to this Special Olympics, Indiana. This was there was kind of their baby. They’re part of the project and they are running with it. And especially now that Karl won that recent award, we’re hoping that it will gain even more traction in that regard.
50:04
Well, let’s put the link to that in the show notes. Because you know, if there’s educators listening, or you know, even as a parent, you know, it’s about what we can do as parents to make a change. Take it to your school.
50:16
Yeah, I appreciate it. And again, people, they see these things, they’re like, well, this guy’s just probably trying to make make money. No, and this the money won’t go to me, right? The money goes to Special Olympics is that was Carl’s wish. And it’s not about the money. It’s about getting the word out, have a great family, and a family that can give you hope, and a family that can give you direction. I think
50:40
this is a story who it hasn’t been told like this before. It is a it’s a it’s a story that really shines a light on, I think it’s one of the most honest lights on the journey, like historical and how we got here. And who was the old 1950s couples that was movie stars, a boy Rogers? Is it Roy Rogers and Dale Evans? Yes,
51:00
when she wrote the book angel on aware.
51:03
That’s right. So
51:04
that story I wanted to see and I bought it and I read it because someone was like, you have to read the story. Maybe that’s where the angel came from. Maybe that’s where that came from that that they decided to write a book and, and people took it as well, then that here you have a successful couple. And this must be it. Well, that’s got to be the gospel, right, that’s got to be the gospel. That’s all they had. But one of the points in there is that, you know, their child had a heart ailment, so their child died very young, but it never ever met. And these are like very successful people. They didn’t deem our children to deserve those heart surgeries that would have saved their child’s life 100%, if this story if this booklet would have been written by Carl and Betty, and she would have said, and I told them, I’m going to take my son home, that would have changed everything. If that was the book that was released, you know, 60 years ago, that would have changed everything. And it’s not about changing your income. It’s about changing the narrative. And, and anybody who’s a part of this journey knows that that narrative has to be changed, you know, you feel it right, when you step on the path, because it’s a story coming the other way.
52:21
No, and, you know, again, this brings me back to that line, I probably shared it in our last talk, but a great line in a book that won the Pulitzer Prize a few years ago, he said, the greatest argument, I’ll get this a little wrong, but the greatest argument in the world won’t change somebody’s mind. The only thing that can do that is a good story. And I actually believe that I think people need to see it, they need to see it to, to really start to understand and start to walk in somebody else’s shoes, rather than just to hear it. Yes, you should do this, yes, you should do that, as this film. And like Carl, and Betty doesn’t ever say, Yes, you should do this, or you don’t ever do that. It’s just, it just shows what they did. And so viewers can watch it and take it in and think about it for themselves. And I think that’s the kind of story, you know, saying a story tells a sell. That’s of course, never, ever, ever true. But in a way, there’s their story. Just it just speaks so clearly, that I saw it so clearly, once I finally done all the research and that’s when I turned to my editor and I said, you know, we have something different here. This is this is this is different than your average bear, we had a we have a really deep and profound subject matter. And so then it was, it was our challenge just to, to bring it out in all in all its beauty, and not preach and just show and as they someone said lightpath. And boy, you know, the further the Erskine is Lacey can be spread, I think the more good it will do for society. So you know, anybody who wants to come on board, this is we are a small grassroots movement. But we’re we are gaining some traction. And I think it speaks really well. People People want great inspirational stories, they want that they just have to be provided. And but to see people I mean, we did look at each other early on. Right, right. Like, are people gonna like this, like a half a baseball story, and then we got half of something else. And we’re like, I don’t know, but I think I think I think they will. We’ll see. And the result has been just tremendous.
54:43
I think you empowered. I think that’s what you did is you empowered, like, like you you empower them. You’ve given them something that maybe we haven’t or society society definitely hasn’t. Education system hasn’t as parents we may not have known or thought to do or or maybe the information is new to us. And just like, like, what? You know, I think about, like, if I’m going through life and and I have this view of me put on me, but I don’t know, I don’t know where it came from. And I deal with that, and I overcome it every step of the way. Right? And, and then if someone just says, you know where that came from? I’m, I’m given the insight to be like, well, that’s nonsense. You know, that’s, that’s what I’ve been fighting. Well, how many? How many challenges do people take on that has nothing to do with who they are in like any, any human on this planet? How many challenges do they they take on, like, whether it be you know, from family or history, like, whatever it is society. And then once you are given the clarity of knowing that, that isn’t yours, that isn’t yours, I think it it, I don’t know, I just gives you like that light to light, it gives you a strength, those just, I don’t, it just gives you a strength. Like that’s not that’s not mine, that’s yours. So now I have more energy to be on my path. And if we can do that, for individuals with Down syndrome, and intellectual disabilities, if we can give them that if we can give that freedom to their families, or, and, and you know, their classmates to go, oh, this person is bullying them, for this reason, or this person has this viewpoint from this reason. This is where that comes from folks. And that’s what your film does. It, it just it states the truisms, it puts it out there doesn’t tell you what to do. But I don’t know how you can’t help but do what’s right after watching it.
57:01
Well, you just said the three best words, and I wouldn’t have guessed this, but once you hear me here, and the three best words, you can hear about a film or a book or anything, lights, alight. Lights alight. Again, I, I feel in a weird spot here, because I’m getting a lot of credit simply for documenting a splendid subject. But I do believe that’s what Carl and Betty do. I think they’ve done it, especially in this area, you know, for 63 years now. That’s how old Jimmy is now. And he’s going going strong. I think they’ve been both of them have been lighting a light through with diversity and other ways, all sorts of other ways ever since they were born in the 1920s. And I think that there are just certain people that if you’re able to capture them for posterity bottle, their their strengths, their vision, their their inspiration, you got to do it, you know, take the chance to take the opportunity to do it, I was very fortunate. Probably Carl wouldn’t be able to do it if we started now. But man, you see him in the film, he sounds so clear, you know, he’s 96 When I say a 12 year old eyes, you know, he, he’s still lighting lights, and now, you know the sports world, we’ll be able to learn a little bit more because of this award. He just got I mean, he’ll be on the big stage. There. You know, it brings more positive light, to a story to life to a condition that needs it that will benefit by it. And to and I would think everybody again, like me. I’m not directly touched by this. But I am because I’m part of society too. Right. And I think that everybody should learn about about a guy like Carl, I know that there are Carl and baddies. And again, I will say that you are in that same same group. All over the place. Sometimes, you know, you just need to take a second and look at look at the great stories that are out there. And don’t be so turned off by the nonsense you see in the headlines every day. This is an important, crucially important social revolution that is ongoing. It’s ongoing and it needs people to fuel it. And again, what you guys are doing is is is very, very noble. A good story can change minds. I believe that and that’s the hope you’re
59:35
so blessed to have talked to you again to have you in our lives. I consider you a friend. I have to thank our friend Mary wall a documentarian that introduced us. We’re just really blessed to have talked to you again.
59:48
Listen, I feel I feel the same way and a lot of tough stuff going on in life right now. Like everybody’s including mine. But this is kind of this is a light this is A light and I just, it’s changed my life. And I hope it can change a lot of others.
1:00:08
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If We Knew Then - A Down Syndrome Advocacy Podcast 