Transcript
Hello and welcome to the If We Knew Then podcast. I’m Stephen Saux.
And I’m Lori Saux.
0:34
And today we’re visited by our good friend, Karen Maezen Miller.
0:39
These are some of my favorite conversations, because she’s one of my favorite people. It’s through these conversations on this journey that I personally have found so much insight and growth, and really been able to pave a way of presence in my life and allowing those gifts of Liam and this community to flourish in my life. We’re always so thrilled to speak with her. Today, we’re going to talk about patience and trust, and so many words that can sometimes be easy to say, but harder to act upon these little concepts that just really transform every moment. Our friend Maezen is a gift, and we are so happy to be able to share that gift with you.
1:39
So welcome, Maezen.
Good afternoon, Maezen.
1:45
My goodness, can you tell it’s Mercury retrograde?
1:48
What happened?
1:49
I logged on several times. And it wouldn’t let me in the meeting. It said that the host had another meeting in progress.
1:56
Well, that’s funny, because I then close down our meeting and I open it up again. And it worked. There you go. Well, we hope you’ve been well, good to see you.
2:06
I have been well sometimes I feel like I’m the only you know, person who’s managed to stay well. But I, you know, masks help, of course. And I’ve been very thorough going about all of my, you know, vaccines and boosters, and all of this and then the other and I think I might be a little compulsive about it. But yeah, I think now I’m going on three years without any sniffles? I shouldn’t say that.
2:36
That’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. It’s it was it’s funny, because when you do that, when you you’re so protected. And then we do get afraid, like what happens when we go out, it’s been nice to be protected, I enjoy, you know, wearing the mask and going into other places and having that extra layer of I guess, to be being empowered to like participate in staying? Well.
2:59
I mean, it used to just seem quite routine to have, you know, two or three calls a year, and maybe you could get the flu, and then you know, so forth and so on. And especially when you have school aged kids, but those places and those, you know, contemporary cultures where mask wearing is routine. I think these people know something that we didn’t know. Yeah. But nonetheless, you know, I travel, I’ve been traveling, and I’ll be traveling some more. And you do see how out of mind it is for many people to actually protect themselves. So I become like the only old woman in New York City wearing a mask, and easily identified by that or on a plane. But they work.
3:49
So that’s just happened when I went into a grocery store. And I think I’ve finally gotten to a place where I’m okay, like everybody gets to choose. And this is just my choice. And I’m okay.
4:00
Yeah, you don’t need an opinion about it. And we don’t need to make it make it a debate. But I will say Laurie that that is really a sign of spiritual advancement, that you can be as you are, and be okay with it. You see, that you don’t feel like you have to either conform, or you’re not self conscious about standing out. And there’s real freedom in that. And you there’s no need to judge others. You simply you know, let yourself kind of be invisible. That’s, that’s not a negative. There’s real freedom in that. So yeah, it’s good for you.
4:40
Yeah, there was there was a free it’s funny that you say about freedom or letting yourself be invisible because that I did feel recently like I just feel like I have a shift of just, I’m okay, just being where I am. You know, and I think a lot of that when I think about this journey with Liam I’ll lot of that is just so empowering to just get to a place where I’m not concerned about how people view my family or judgments or thoughts or misconceptions or misperceptions, I’ve just gotten to a point where I’m just like, here we are. And I’m not, I used to really go out into the world with, you know, my antennas up. And I talked about, you know, we have a bubble, which a bubble is still good, but it’s not there to keep anybody out or to validate my value or my son’s value, it’s just, I’ve just finally gotten to a place that I think maybe I’m free from the third concern, the thought, like I almost forget about the preoccupation being judged.
5:49
Possibly,
5:50
yeah, of course, the judgments, the you know, all that other stuff, like, when I’d walk into a grocery store of how people would look what people would think, you know, the comments that would come my way, he’s very highly aware, and then just building a wall. So I didn’t have to experience it, because it could be very hurtful, you know, it just, it still was very raw, and the words, I let them have more of a value than then they have, they only have the value I give them.
6:24
So by not giving them that value, you can kind of bring those walls down, is that what you’re saying?
6:27
Yeah, and, um, but the thing is, is that it’s not even like, I’m not going like I’m bringing the wall down, I’m just
6:33
you know, what, there is no wall. And when you forget that there’s a wall, there’s definitely no all the changes in you. And it does point to something that’s pretty significant, which is that we create the world we live in. And sometimes that sounds like, oh, wow, that’s great. I’m going to manifest all these magnificent things for myself, and I’m going to have, you know, think about getting rich and but the truth is that that fear that you have is your fear. And the hurt is your hurt, and you’re anticipating the hurt. And out of that that’s comes from you. And then you projected outwards so that you feel we all do as if we live in enemy territory, and that we have to be on guard because people are mean, and people are terrible, and so forth, and so on. But what’s empowering is that you realize the change in you. In other words, by forgetting that step, that creates the need for a defense and the need for protection. That’s all in your head, you’ve created it and projected it out. That is the beginning of fearlessness and strength. And maybe then what you can find out, you kind of sometimes are shocked. People are okay, they’re nice. They can be but yeah, the changes in you, when we drop the need to. And this gets to this topic that I want to talk about just the constant need that we are supposed to prevent or prevent, or, you know, avoid or escape something negative, you know, especially for our children, when we stop doing that what emerges in its place is trust. And that trust is universal trust in our children trust in other people, and in ourselves.
8:28
That’s a good point that you make, because I think that what had happened was that fight for this with the school system. It just changed me in ways that I didn’t like I was just telling Steven, I just I looked at myself in the mirror, I just not not standing looking at myself, but I caught a glimpse. And I was like, Oh, I’d look so mad. You know, my read, I’m
8:51
just like, ready? And what you were was afraid. Yeah, fear is the source of anger. And it’s the source of greed. You know, and by greed, I don’t just mean that you want to be filthy, rich or famous. It means to make sure that you get what you do, you know, to get to get to get things happen on their own. Good things happen on their own. And we might say, you know, Miss unfortunate things happen on their own. But the feeling that we have to manufacture any part of that, you know, whether it’s an offense or defense is false, and that causes harm. That causes harm. So that gets me back to this feeling that I’ve had lately which is the to remember, say in the case of children, or I can even look at my own life. Everything that that my daughter has ever accomplished. She’s done on Iran. I mean, and here I thought I had something to do with it. I thought that I was either making it giving her an up Opportunity are giving her an advantage or, you know, giving her advice or teaching an important lesson or something like this, but all life unfolds by itself. And that goes for everything, everything in our lives, and everything in our children’s lives. One night, I just realized, why am I so engaged? And why am I involving myself in unnecessary concern and heartache when everything happens by itself? And if I can just be patient, and let things unfold? Do you remember when it was 110 degrees, I mean, forever and ever and ever and ever here. And then that first cool morning, just reminding you that things change. It’s all impermanent. So that’s what I’m trying to practice. And then when we can be patient, Laurie, the people in our lives are given freedom.
11:02
Yeah. I think I just had that same experience with Sophia, where I was just like, why she’s gonna do it her way. And I mean, I think his parents were there. And we offer support and love, we show up, like you said, but with both of them. I mean, I have the freedom now. And perhaps I always had the freedom, but it was a little bit harder to find or dig into or choose the freedom. But where Liam is now, I have, you know, some freedom of just knowing that he’s in a place that welcomes him and wants him there and sees him and his value. Not that that matters. But it feels good. And we, we had a we had a positive and a negative and the negative. I just said, because somebody gave me options where you can do this, this and this. And I said, No, I’m good. I’ve been down that road. And I’m just going to keep focused on this good thing I have here, these people who, you know, see my son and and want him there, because why have him Why push for him to be someplace that they don’t see as value, or they don’t want him. And just in doing that. And you know, like we’ve had this conversation, I’m like, always, like, I have to write the letter, I have to say the thing I have to do the do. And just in doing that it like freed up. And just on Friday, someone said, I just want you to know, you know, when I heard that, to me, it sounded like you were kind of down with the negative, and you just didn’t want to do and I was like, yeah, and he goes, but I want you to know, it was wrong. What was done. And I took care of that. That moment, somebody else stepped up, I no chance of that if you there was no and and it was but it also not only just someone’s stepping up and telling and writing the letter for me or saying the say for me. Like in a bigger essence, it was just so lovely to see like a return to humanity. Like a return to that place where, gosh, you don’t just have it doesn’t have to be a fight. And it’s so hard for me to say that because I get conflicted with like advocacy and showing up and you know, you’re so all of that stuff that goes in there. But that that feeling that we feel as parents have gotta stay on it gotta get on it can’t you
13:37
know, if he hadn’t stepped up? He would have been out, but I would have been okay,
13:41
right? Because I had decided that I’m just you know what? I know that that bad stuff. That challenge exists, I’ve seen it. And I fought it. And I’ve hit the wall. And I’ve done all of that stuff where I’ve learned. But I have all these, this beauty. And this, I’m just going to be here for a while is how it felt. I’m just going to be here, I’m going to make this choice.
14:05
That is reinforcing. When you have an experience where you drop that when you take your foot off the pedal, you know, there’s a feeling often that we just have to push, push, push, accelerate, accelerate, you know, get there, get there get there. And that’s really living as though everything and every one in every situation is oppositional. But you know, it’s not. So I was thinking in particular since you now have you know, a teenager, you know how I wish How I wish I really could have been more patient and more trusting and you know, you’re at the risk of sounding like I’m not very Xin. I was always hesitant if you think that my daughter could do anything by herself or on her own. Without somehow my Review. I mean, honestly, let me take a look at that I would say or. And all of that is undermining. I remember when, when my daughter was in preschool. And this was a lovely little preschool, which was all held, the classrooms were basically outdoors, and the kids were outside all the time. And this is this dreamy kind of an environment that you would wish for your for your kids. And yet, even when the kids were two and a half and three years old, probably half of parents in my daughter’s class had their three roles in early literacy training. And that sounds crazy. However, with all of these metrics in these measurements in these standards, and these milestones, we always think in those terms, you know, when will they be able to do this? Or when will this happen? Or when will the proficient or this or when will they be ready for that. And I remember very clearly, the director of the school one time telling us parents, no one will ever ask when your child learn to read, or no one will ever has anybody ever asked you, when you learn to walk, or you know, when you learned to write, or when you learned this, or when you learn to that, I mean, it’s just, we live in kind of an upside down state in terms of how life happens. And how human beings evolve. I don’t know that that has made me any more patient and trusting. But I’m trying. I had a great teacher one time who said, If we were truly patients, we would never have any problems. That’s just sounds impossible. Except when you realize who labels something a problem? Who call something a problem? And where does that labeling occur? You know, where do you when and where do you decide that how things are, is a problem. And anything that I thought was a problem six months ago, is, believe me, it’s not a problem. Now, think that I thought was a problem last year is not a problem now. So it just shows again and again, that if we could trust what we don’t know, and really not empower, it’s not about empowering ourselves, empowering others, and particularly our children to be who they are, and go where they go, do what they do. That somehow in a mysterious and beneficial way, they will be given the experiences they need to become exactly who they are. You’re shaking your head, because it’s so true, isn’t it?
18:04
I know it, but I have to tell you, it’s a fear, a big fear that patients could equal, being stagnant, not doing. And so there’s that fear of, well, if I don’t do this, I’m going to look back and say, I had a chance to do that and didn’t do it. You know, like the early literacy class. Everyone’s putting them in there. If I don’t do it, my kids can be behind and three years, I’m gonna look back and go, What a jerk I was for not doing that.
18:34
Why no, you might unless you have the opportunity to really study the pattern of thought thinking and how absurd it is. And to see that the source of it is your own fear. You know, speaking to that, when at this very same preschool when it was time for the four year olds, when they became five. And then their parents were scurrying about trying to find where they were going to go to kindergarten. And it didn’t just mean the neighborhood school and meant some kind of fancy pants kind of kindergarten where they were going to be on, you know, just that straight road to Stanford or something like that. And I remember there was extreme paranoia, and extreme stress over this, while the kids were four, or maybe, you know, just turned five. And my daughter had always already told me at at four, she told me, mommy, I want to stay here. I thought, I mean, I could have overwritten her. At this point, I was beginning to think that maybe she knew more than I did, you know, so I didn’t plow that lane. I mean, I did not go looking for kindergartens. And I was approached by parent in the parking lot, which is where everything important happens. I said, What are you going to do? I mean, if you don’t do this, she’ll be left behind. And I remember thinking, Where are all the children who are left behind? I mean, what street corner are they on? I mean, where are these kids who somehow were, you know, the to parents who are just too lazy, to, to get, you know, to get on it and to get ahead of the game and this. But early on, I started to sense that there was some insanity involved in this. But nonetheless, it persists. And I have to tell you that I am the guilty party. I’ve very small family, but I’m the one who worries the most. I worry the most. And just recently now, you know, it sounds ridiculous that I’m comparing what happened to my daughter when she was two, three and four. My daughter is now 23. And just the other day I went, Oh, 23 Oh, my God, she has all the time in the world by worrying about. And I have to now tell her, honey, you don’t have to work this hard. Yeah, go out and have fun. You know, take time off. Because she reminds me a little too much of myself. At that age when I felt like the only lane to be in was the fast lane. That I had to work, work, work, work, work and get ahead ahead ahead. The truth is I had that life. And then 15 years later, you know, it’s 3536 37, I clocked out, you know, I was absolutely burned out. Because I was in such I was so afraid that I would be left behind. Yeah, and there’s no such thing. Whereas the behind, and whereas the ahead, and there’s no such thing.
21:42
I love this conversation, because when you said, you know, no one’s ever going to ask you when your child learn to read or when they learned to walk, or when they did these things. For this community, we get asked that all the time, and when they send me that paperwork, I’m like, I can’t remember. I mean, we’re expected to like, remember, these things should have logged, written, I remember, remember the moment because we, you know, had a happy dance. And we did. And the truth of the matter is, we don’t have to push into that fast lane. And and either we’re made to think or from the process, we begin to think that we do
22:18
when we’re asked that question as parents because it’s it’s asked, we just got asked, and we just got just got asked on a paper piece of sixth grade for some reason for some. I forget what when you don’t have the date, you’re just feeling you feel like you’re just a loser.
22:34
I should I should I make up something like like, February 27? Like,
22:39
you know, you know why I think that is, you know, I think that is because we have systems in our culture. And it’s not just, it’s everywhere. We have systems and metrics established by academics that say that these things are kind of the input so that we can predict the output. You know, and and that’s unfortunate. I mean, I frankly, for myself, I mean, you can say the same thing about, you know, your, your high school transcript. Yeah, you know, which has been used as the basis for, or at least, it used to be more, I think, in a way it’s loosening up, or what your, what your SATs score, or was or this or that or the other what your GPA was always or when I can remember, even in the case of my neurotypical daughter in middle school, I had stopped going to the monthly awards, ceremonies, or the monthly, you know, kind of assemblies. And I assumed that it was because I mean, I stopped getting invitations, and I assumed it was because they weren’t handing out prizes or awards to any longer in middle school. I mean, to me, I thought, you know, well, that’s just cruel, you know, to be giving out these trophies, you know, in middle school, which is a hard enough time, you know, you just got through it. And it was like the last day of school. And I think we were anticipating going to middle school graduation. And I saw on the invitation that they were going to give out awards. And I said, Well, Georgia, maybe you’ll get an award, she looked at me. She said, Mom, they don’t give awards to people like me. Oh. And I said, Well, how do you know, she said, because they give awards every month. Oh, man, but you can see that, that, that that process that is you know, I’m sure the template that’s in place and a lot of school districts that a lot of grades at where it’s all about achievement, achievement, achievement, you know, competition, competition, competition, and what does that produce? You know, the kids who are in that any of those categories are gonna stay in that category. And the kids who aren’t, are not, but that’s just the culture that we live in. And we have to look at that and say that’s delusional. And for the most part, it’s harmful. You know, it is harmful to self esteem, confidence. But nonetheless, we live in the middle of delusion. And one way or the other, it’s going to trip you up. And you know, delusion is just something that’s not true. But nonetheless, it’s a deeply held belief. And so we live in a delusional world, and that these institutions, even though there may be people who mean well, are based on delusional concepts and principles, and therefore they create more delusion. And you then can say, well, you can just see through it, you can just see through it. And when you see through it, what you see is your own children. And then you can examine, am I okay? Can I trust? Can I allow? Can I be patient? And I understand your point, Stephen, it sounds as though it might be disengagement. But it’s not. Patience is a virtue, you see. And in a way it arises in an environment where it’s where you apply your own patience is where places where you don’t know, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You don’t know how long it’s going to take. But it’s you don’t apply patience, where you see something egregious occurring, or where you see actual harm being inflicted? No, you that doesn’t require patience, patience is something else entirely. And as both of your children grow up, you’ll see they don’t eat much from you. They really don’t. A lot of what you think is necessary is just a kind of self serving intervention, you know, and intrusion. You know, so that’s when they need that, you know, full wholehearted patience that you believe in them, you see, and you don’t even have to say it. It’s just because of what you’re not saying that they know that you’re okay with them, that you’re not disappointed in them, that you’re not worried about them. That’s
27:19
right, patience is a virtue, it’s doesn’t equal irresponsibility, or laziness or not pushing to be better.
27:28
But that’s all judgment, like we’re judging, we’re judging ourselves. Like, when you just said about patients, you can still be in the egregious environment that you’re fighting, and you don’t like you said, you don’t have to be patient for that stuff you write, but I can still be patient with my child, like what would have happened if I would have went into the IEPs. And in that very hostile environment of people telling me what my son won’t do and who my son is, and all of these, like things that come at you that they wouldn’t dare throw it in. And a different parent that wasn’t in that situation? What if I could have just said, with patients, like, we’ll see,
28:09
God is the greatest person there is? Let’s just see how it goes. So we’ll see. Yeah, let’s see how it turns out. You know, and also, then there’s something else not that you need to accuse people of this. But essentially, every conversation is just opinion, opinion, opinion, opinion, opinion. Here’s my opinion, and I’m going to present it to you. So it’s a fact. And opinion, opinion, every argument is opinion, every fight is a fight about opinions. And doctors are in the opinion, business counselors are in the opinion business, you know, and I’m not sure that they really have an opinion, except they are expected they should have an opinion or a forecast or a prediction or warning or something like that. But opinions are worthless. There’s no need to have an opinion about anything. Most of the time. So yes, we’ll see. We’ll see now and I know, you know, this, the problem solved itself didn’t?
29:16
Well, I think about when you’re saying that we’ll see. Like, I just I think it would have blown minds if I would have said we’ll see. And that’s an opinion, because it is they’re all it’s all. It’s all presented as such facts. Just as when we entered into that school, we sat across and they were like Liam’s never going to learn to read and he should never be held accountable to the same level of his peers like that, Mom, that’s that’s crazy that no, we don’t that’s just crazy mom. And those were opinions, but they do feel like facts. And if we can take that gift of like that is your opinion.
29:54
Let Liam or our children show
29:56
Yes, they will show absolute they,
30:00
I mean, there are scientific facts, right. But when it comes to someone’s potential, that’s completely opinion or something, you know, as, there’s so many pieces to the puzzle, that it’s not a defined, we’re not talking about scientific things.
30:16
It’s not predictable. I mean, you can make a prediction, however,
30:20
well, as a fantasy football player, I can tell, I can tell you all the predictions you can hear for the whole week, and then the game comes, and it’s all out the window. I mean, it could be the potential is there for someone to catch a touchdown or so. But it has to happen in there’s a lot of factors that go into that. Just like I think of the fear of, if I don’t put my child in this, in this class at a preschool, what’s gonna be left behind, just like Bitcoin earlier in, in Olympic Bitcoin. Now, this idea of, if I don’t get into on this, I’m just, I’m gonna be kicking myself, I’m gonna be like, I have this opportunity. But we can see where things go with that. It’s not everybody that got into bitcoin made millions of dollars, people are losing everything from it. So it’s all opinions. And if you had, if you have patience, and let it play out, it’s not lazy. It’s not irresponsible. It’s allowing life to be,
31:15
well, what’s been really, the challenges and the trend. And the trend in this transition is getting to a place of trust. You know, because of the past, like getting to a place of trust getting to, like you said, like, patience, where I can go, Okay, well, in my mind, there was a timeline, this has to happen before the school year, and this happens, and then this and then I need to do that. And, and because I could feel not only felt like a fit, but like, I’d listen to what people would say to me and just really picked up on the vocabulary and the word choices. And I was like, okay, so I can just breathe for a second. And it’s not easy. And it’s not it wasn’t necessarily comfortable to go, you know, because there’s that point, like you said that you might go, oh, my gosh, I know, I should have done that. But, but to just have that moment of First of all, it just feels better on me to go, Okay, what is the worst that could happen? I could end up and be like, Oh, it’s just like I thought it was that it was before. So by know what to do in that situation. Like we know what to do, we’ve been there. And it was really hard to just say, I’m going to be here, I’m going to trust, I’m going to trust that my son who’s worked so hard. Right there, there were a few times where I misunderstood and then he got in trouble. And but that was me that had nothing to do with what he had actually done. That had nothing to do with where he was, but I was just so concerned are still coming from this fearful place.
32:54
Lori, I want to tell you that make sure that you don’t discount, how much influence your feelings have on what you experience. I don’t think there is a place of trust. As soon as you drop the fear. That’s trust. You don’t know anymore. You know, you’re not an expert ever. But as soon as you drop the cloud of fear, the bright light shines. And you feel safe in the moment, right now. And you trust and that trust is not trust in a certain sequence or a certain chain of events or that you’re going to it’s going to turn out the way you want. It’s just trust. You see. And that means I say trusting life. Now does do really crummy things happen to good people. Sure. We see that all the time. But you’re talking about can really good things happen. That we don’t expect. Yes, that can happen too. And so we wear kind of I’ve told you this before like a bib. Or you know, it’s kind of like something that we hang over our neck that has a vow, the vow that we take as Buddhist practitioners, we say it aloud every day when we’re doing retreat. I have to repeat it by memory. VAST is the robe of liberation. We’re talking about freedom vast, is this place of liberation. It’s a formless field of benefaction, formless meaning it’s not fixed. Nothing here is hard. It changes all the time. You see everything comes and emerges in this place field of benefaction you see we have to in our hearts know that life enhances life. Life sustains life. Life has life as its primordial, objective, you know that life is good. That’s what we have to have faith in. And as you know, you know, sometimes there’s, well in my place here, if I, if I look at my paradise here, my patch of paradise, I have bears now, you know. And then if I don’t have living bears, I have their scat left behind. So yes, there’s a lot of stuff you don’t want to step in, in this field of benefaction. But life grows here, life grows around you. You see, so you mean, you don’t have faith, you can’t trust that things will improve or that life will be supported, or that your children will be encouraged that they will have the teachers they need. And they’ll be, you know, challenged in a way they need to be challenged. And you need you don’t have faith or trust, that they know they’re loved. That’s what you need to make sure that they know they’re loved, for who they are, not what they do, or what they may become. That they are infinitely and totally, automatically loved just the way they are. Okay.
36:48
When you said life is good, we used to have a mug that said life is good on it. And life is all we have. So at the very, very minimum of what we’re experiencing life, the very well we think is a low point. It’s still amazingly great. It’s what we have. I mean, I think of not going to sports again, but this guy is Steve Gleason is an ex Saints player who has ALS. And he’s been dealing with ALS for a decade. I follow him on on Twitter. And he has wonderful things to say. Experiencing in life in a way that most of us would hoping not to experience life. But he’s understanding each moment that he’s able to type through his eyes. To send off a tweet on Twitter is a glorious moment of life that has been extended to him again, for another minute and second. And he tries so hard in his I mean, I think he’s just given his own experience. But in my mind, he’s trying to tell me and tell everyone. Every second is just this, this gift that we can do anything and even the low points, even the points were like, wow, he had to go to the emergency room is like Yeah, but I met new people. And I experienced these people that wanted to help me. At the minimum, we have life and life is good.
38:15
Yeah, you’re talking about a fella who’s actually screaming it, you know? And it’s so interesting. He’s screaming and shouting and preaching. With what a blink of an eye. Yeah, you see, those who know, do that. Those who know do that. That’s it.
38:36
Life is bigger. It’s so much more important just to be here. And to love each other. And you said trust I think back to a conversation we had a few times ago and you you had talked about trust, then about just if you’re fearing you’re not trusting and and and it comes to me a lot when I get into that point where I get consumed with the stuff because you can you can you just lose focus over, allowing things to unfold over, allowing life to be good. And the fact that every moment like this moment that we’re together, just seeing your face I’ve, you know, I’m so excited that I get to see your face this morning. It’s what matters. And at the heart of you know this journey, as parents of a child with Down syndrome, so many things were thrown onto our path that we hadn’t thought of or counted on or understood or expected. So it was a whole shifter and it does take away from the actual beauty of life and I love talking to you because there’s no difference between your experience with your daughter and our experience with our daughter and our son, and I think that’s what I needed to know and and understand. It’s not within the parameters of maybe where someone is trying to fit us where we can begin to think that
40:12
the limitations. Yeah, the limitations. Yeah, you have to accept the limitations and live within the limitations and don’t expect beyond the limitations. And you know, what our limitations, their opinions? Yeah, somebody decides that this is the realm of possibility. Well, we live in the realm of infinite possibilities.
40:31
I love that. I love the expansive like just just picturing that. And when I think of that, and I think about a field and I think about, but that’s life, we forget that I’ve forgotten that at times. It’s expansive, and beautiful. You know, it doesn’t mean that it’s without a challenge. But you had you had started to say earlier that our life is we we create our life. And I believe like, I believe that from how I feel about something, or what I think about something, or what I’m going to focus on in a certain moment, that definitely, if there was a couple years where I forgot, I forgot that I had that power
41:12
goes back to what you said Lori earlier, about choosing to place your value in certain things, what you’re placing your value in, and reminds me of, I don’t even know his name, but it was a comedian we saw just the other day. And one of the things through all the laughs that he said was,
41:27
his last name is Papa.
41:28
Papa? He says just live every day. Just live. Like it’s pretty simple. And putting your value in the things that help you just live will be the happiest that we will live will live.
41:45
Yeah, because what you’re talking about the alternative is not necessarily Well, it’s not a physical death or mortality, it is a dead place. And that’s where we are focusing all of our awareness on what isn’t here. You know, what isn’t happening. Our fears are about things that might happen, or could happen or won’t happen, or, you see, that’s actually a dead space. And in Zen, we consider it death. It’s a shame that someone would die having never lived, you see, to really live in the present. And this present moment, which is really all there is. That’s all there is, why can’t that be important. Instead, we place all of our importance on things that aren’t present. And in order to prevent them from being present or to, you know, escape them if they happen, or whatever. And you see, you can’t do that. There’s no way to do it. And that’s why we we just get so head heavy, and deep into despair, because we have disempowered. We’ve actually died to life, when we spend all of our time in what isn’t real. And fear is never about what’s present. I think I might have mentioned this, and I don’t know if there were studies done, who cares. But you know, in times of extreme stress, and maybe this is like your uber athletes, Stephen, you know, in times of extreme stress, there is no fear. There’s no room for fear, because the concentrated mind is so narrowly focused on what’s happening right in front of you. You know, and it also goes for circumstances on a battlefield, not that I’ve ever been on that kind of a battlefield. But I’m afraid sometimes I’ve turned my life into a battlefield, or all I can see is what’s right here. And in that place, you know, soldiers on a battlefield will be very, very, you know, they’ll be intensely stressed. But if you stop them and say, can you handle this, they’ll say, Yes, I can handle this right now. You know, you can always handle things as they are, it’s impossible to handle things that hasn’t yet happened. Or that won’t happen. And that’s where all the difficulty arises. Thinking that right now I have to formulate a strategy, a plan a scenario. You know, I need to do something now. So that it produces this particular positive outcome that I that I want to have, you know, that’s, that’s how we become sick. Frankly, that’s what for-shortens life. We live in shadow. So let’s be patient. Let’s be patient if we were truly patient would never have any problems. It sounds like it’s an impossibility After all, life is full of difficulties. But if we were truly paid Shouldn’t we would say, and we’ll see. Let’s see how this goes. I’m not so sure you’re right about that. You know, this also fits in with our concept of time, which is that we don’t have any. I don’t have any time. I can’t be patient. I can’t let it go. You know, I need to know right now. But that’s also a fallacy we have all the time there is.
45:25
I love the piece that you can’t say, we’ll see. I guess you could say it be angry, we’ll say, maybe when you say it, like we’ll see. And I’m not so sure about that. There’s, I don’t know, it just even feels better than just accepting something that isn’t real, because that’s what we’re accepting. When we buy into those other things that are about the future, and just the feel of saying “we’ll see”. Just the feeling of being open to that just to, like you said, it’s patience. And maybe it doesn’t feel like the word is patience. But it is definitely patience, because it’s letting go and just actually seeing.
46:11
Yeah, and it is an opening, like you said, it’s an opening. Yeah. And it’s not aggressive.
46:19
Yeah. And it is where, like what you were talking about, like life grows here. And it’s expansive. There’s, there’s, in my mind, I just see, like this beautiful, like field with sun shining on it. And that’s what it feels. And wouldn’t that feel better in our bodies? You know, across the board in every situation, but when we are, you know, advocating for our child in any form, in any way, no matter what child, doesn’t it just feel better to know that we’re going to see, which is going to see. Thank you for that opinion. Yeah, I have no idea what the response to thank you for that opinion. We’ll see. I don’t know what that would have brought. But I just, I know that in me, it would have felt so much better. Because you have to believe it to like, you really have to that’s trust. That’s patience, that’s believing in possibility. That’s what we always say that we do we believe in the possibility for our child. But to really do it, it actually doesn’t feel like a fight. It feels really good.
47:24
Yeah, it’s not a fight. Contemporary Zen teacher said that he defined Zen or, you know, the practice that I engage in is possibilities, possibilities, possibilities, you know, and, and the words, nobody knows anything about anything. First off, that’s there, and then how things will go, I mean, we’ve all just lived, and we’re still living in times in which I’m sorry, I’m not interested, in your opinion poll about what people are concerned about, I’m not interested in that you see, anything can happen. Nothing that we’re experiencing, was predictable, you know, so if I can disengage from let me disengage from that. And then live here, you see live here, let me live here. Now, I’m going to tell you the story in closing, okay? Because I lately have taken great comfort and reassurance. In … It’s one of the stories of Buddha, you know, and I’m not evangelizing. But you know, we think that wise people live differently, or that, you know, spiritual leaders walk on water or whatever. And so there is a passage in one of the Buddha’s famous teachings called the Diamond Sutra, which I should have read or probably haven’t read, I might have tried to read, but I put it aside, you know, I’m not that serious, a student. But lately, my teacher has been repeating this story. So that we would all bring our expectations and self criticism and our judgment down to earth. And I mean, the real Earth, the Earth that has mud and rocks, you know, and bears and trouble in it. And so this is the beginning of a sutra, our teaching, and it describes a day in the life of Buddha. Okay? So Buddha in the morning, puts on his patchwork robe in order to go out into the city. He leaves the temple and he carries his bowls, his begging bowls, because he begs for every meal. He eats one meal a day, trusting you see that in this world in which he lives, he will be fed, and talk about an act of trust. And whatever he gets, he eats. So he goes out into the city every morning you see woth his bowls and knocks on the doors are. And I like to tell myself he didn’t just go, you know, to Beverly Hills, you know, he didn’t just go to Brentwood. You know, he went all around LA County, wherever his feet took him sometimes to impoverished places, you know, sometimes to wealthy places, just to fill his bowl, take the offering that comes to him. You see, that’s like, whatever happens I’ll deal with. So he then he goes back to the temple and he eats his meal. It’s the way we eat. Although, of course, he’s just eating. And after that, he washes his bowl, and cares for these things, you know, doesn’t make a mess. It’s not lazy or careless with things, washes his bowl and puts his bowl where it goes. Then he takes off his robe, and he falls it and we have a way that we fold robes. Looks like it’s really complicated, you know, but nonetheless, there’s a certain way you fold the robe and he folds the robe, just like you would when you take off your top or your shoes. Where do you put your shoes? You see? How do you care for your shoes, he folds the robe and he puts it where the robe goes, cares for his things and his clothing. Then he washes his feet. Because he’s been walking in the dust he wants to take care of his body cares for his body doesn’t not care for his body. Now, this is a noble act to wash your feet. So he washes his feet so he can go back into the temple. And he takes a seat. Just like you and I have taken, we’ve taken our seats, we’re sitting here you see,
51:38
with our eyes open,
51:41
adjusting our body to feel comfortable. And then he takes care of whatever appears in front of him. That’s it. And of course, things appear in front of you. Sometimes you open the vegetable bed and say, oh, I need broccoli. And you gotta get broccoli, or sometimes the phone rings and you say, Oh, I’m wanting to talk to this person and you respond. Sometimes Sophia or Liam will call from the other room and you’ll go in and say something always appears in your field of view that you need to attend to maybe act upon will make a change. Or maybe let it go. That’s the life of a Buddha. Do you see your life in that life? Can’t you see the similarities in that simple. Awake, aware. Self-responsible totally engaged life. Trusting that you have what you need. I like that story. Because it tells me I don’t have to make this complicated. I don’t have to do more. I don’t have to try harder. Let me just live in trust for life itself. Let me just be
53:18
we love you so much. As hard
53:21
as that is.
53:22
That’s the easy part.
53:24
Let everything be easy. Lori, let everything be easy.
53:28
That’s the reminder for me. And I appreciate your patience with me. Because I know in conversations, it’s been… I know it doesn’t have to be a work. But sometimes I forget. It’s a journey. But I forget sometimes that it’s a choice, and sometimes the choose the other way. And I appreciate your patience and guidance when we talk. I love the story. And I just love that what matters is that we’re here. And that we’re just going to take care of whatever is at hand and not carry all those use to bees with us to just be in the moment. Even though it might look similar. It’s still a new moment, no matter what it might be the same people, but it’s still a new moment. It might be new people. It’s a new moment. And to treat it as such, but with the reverence that it is, it’s our life. And it’s so precious. And then all that other stuff that we talk about so much IEPs and what ifs and opinions and things, they don’t really matter. They’re not
54:34
real. How we deal with the present moment determines the next. That’s it. That’s it if I could only do this. So I want you to know that my conversations that we have and even the thing, the thoughts that arise before our conversations are always healing for me. They’re guiding me. You know, they’re directing and correcting me So, you know, that’s what friendship is for. Thank you. Love you. All right, I love you.
55:10
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If We Knew Then - A Down Syndrome Advocacy Podcast 